Will Months-Long Protests Bring Change in Iran?: Negar Mortazavi / Journalist and Political Commentator

Hello and welcome to DEEPER LOOK from New York.

I'm Del Irani, it's great to have your company.

These protests have been taking place in Iran since last September.

They began after a young, 22-year-old woman, named Mahsa Amini, was arrested by the country's morality police for wearing a headscarf inappropriately.

She subsequently died while in police custody.

These protests have since expanded across Iran, especially among the younger generation, and developed into a movement against the Islamic regime itself.

So, what is different about these current protests in Iran compared to previous ones?

And could they bring about any meaningful change or outcomes in the future?

Joining me now to talk more about this is Negar Mortazavi.

She's an award-winning, exiled Iranian-American journalist and political commentator, who was born and raised in Iran.

She's been covering Iranian affairs for more than a decade, hosts the Iran podcast, and continues to report on the protests, making use of her connections to the region.

Welcome to the program, Negar Mortazavi.

Great to have you with us!

Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.

Negar, what was your first reaction when you heard about these protests?

I mean, when they first happened, did you ever expect them to last this long, and spread so quickly across the country?

No, not so much.

I think they came as a surprise to many of us Iran-watchers, maybe even to Iranians in Iran.

But then, at the same time, it was something that was long-expected.

So, I know, that's a paradox.

But, I'm just in awe of the bravery and the courage that the protesters are showing in the face of very violent brutality, that the security forces have shown in the past, and instances of anti-government protests, in this time around.

And as you said, they've sustained these protests, other forms of dissent for months now.

Nevertheless, it's something that's been in the making for years.

People have political, economic, social, even cultural grievances that the government has not been addressing, and has just met dissent and protests with violence and with more brutality.

So, it's something that's been boiling underneath in a way, and it just needs the sparks, like the killing of Mahsa Amini, or in the past instances, other sparks that just ignite what's already boiling and brewing layers and layers of grievances.

Can you tell us, given your experience in being an Iran-watcher for so long: what makes these protests different to the previous ones?

Well, these protests are building on top of previous anti-government protests, but they're also very significant and unique in that, women play a very central role in these protests - women, young girls.

Essentially, it's seen as a feminist uprising against decades of repression, state-sanctioned violence, and also patriarchy, and very much these traditions and cultural norms, that have been practiced in the country and the society for centuries.

And it's also centered around women's rights issue: the killing of a young woman in the custody of the morality police, because of how she was dressed.

It's something that women have been going through for decades.

And also, the fact that women were rising up to say "no more," and essentially the spark of it, and the core of this movement of being very feminist.

Particularly young women as well, wouldn't you say?

Does it feel like there's this more younger generation taking part?

It sure is. I want to emphasize obviously, it's women and allies.

We also see a lot of men joining or at the forefront of this protest.

But yes, women and young girls.

We're seeing schoolchildren now doing protests, either inside their schools or pouring out into the streets, chanting "Woman, Life, Freedom!," the central slogan of this protest, of this movement or protest, that's also very forward-looking, very progressive.

And many of them have gotten into trouble with their school authority, some even with government authorities, and it takes a lot of bravery and courage.

Again, it's inspiring. It's amazing and incredible.

And it's something that they've persevered in the face of violent crackdown of the security forces turning up.

You said women and allies.

I mean, what had been the role of men in supporting of this movement?

Have there been a lot of young men that have that have also gone out and protested and helped support this movement?

Men also have their own political grievances, economic grievances, social grievances, against the central government.

When it comes to the ethnic areas like Kurdistan like Baluchestan, and also other small and large cities, the economy, their own economy is in really bad shape, the political space for participation has very much shrunk.

The past two elections, essentially, the hardliners have eliminated even the very moderate or reformist candidates, that had played a role in this very Islamic Republic regime in the past, were disqualified,

and essentially, a very narrow selection of candidates were offered for people to choose.

And so, these young people are disenfranchised, with very little hope for a future, for any political participation, for economic prospects, for employment.

And they obviously pour into the streets and join their female counterparts, women and young girls, with their own demands.

And a lot of these demands that we see an intersectional groups of protesters, but their demands also overlap in saying "no" to a very corrupt and violent, repressive system.

What is life like in Iran, for a young woman?

You know, for many of us, who may not get the opportunity to go to Iran, who wouldn't know what, what it's like to live there, under this particular regime.

Paint a picture for us.

Sure.

So, women have been dealing with many, many layers of discrimination, both sanctioned by the state; so, discrimination in laws, and also these norms and traditions of patriarchy in the society.

If you're a woman, for example, in all aspects of family life, marriage, divorce, child custody, even working, so as a professional working woman, to leave the country, travel outside the country, you need permission from your husband.

There was this famous case of a national athlete, the captain of a national team, this top-tier athlete, a woman who couldn't go to an international competition with her team, because her husband didn't give her permission.

So, the team went and did the competition, the captain had to stay behind.

So, women have been feeling this sense of discrimination, that's imposed on them by the state, in every aspect of their personal and professional life.

And then add to that, things like the morality police and the forced hijab, which is really the state imposing "a way of life."

I mean, given the fact that this has been going on for a long time...

I mean, the Iranian regime hasn't changed, right? It's always been authoritarian.

But then, suddenly, the people who have been living under this regime for years and years and years...

they just snapped. I mean, what snapped in them? I mean, what changed?

Well, the regime has had ups and downs.

There were years of reform under former President Khatami.

There was a moderate President like Rouhani, there were also hardliners like Ahmadinejad, now there's a hardline President Raisi.

So, there has been some sort of up and down in how the state has been imposing these political, social and even cultural rules and norms on people.

So, when this current President Raisi came -he's a conservative cleric, also a hardline politician - and he vowed that he would make enforcement of this mandatory hijab even more strict,

and the morality police started becoming even more strict, and it led, to, no surprise, to what we saw with Mahsa Amini.

It was also progression.

So, right before Mahsa Amini, there was a video that went viral online of a mother who was pushing the van of this morality police saying: "Please don't take my daughter, she's sick."

And they drove away, sort of push the mother to the side.

There's been a progression of the sense of humiliation and disrespect and also violence, that women have been dealing with that has brought us to the sense...

When I said: "it's expected," that's what I mean: that we have been seeing that sort of brewing.

So, Negar, what has been the Iranian leadership's response to these current protests?

Tell us about how President Raisi and his people have responded.

Well, they have responded with violence, when it comes to the street.

We've seen images, and human rights organizations have documented, instances of security forces shooting directly at protesters, mostly peaceful, unarmed, sometimes even from behind, as a protester is running away.

And essentially, the state and top officials have been blaming these protests and the dissent on foreign countries, on infiltrators, on instigators, calling them rioters versus protesters,

and essentially suggesting that these people are disrupting public safety and destroying property, and not really recognizing the grievances, legitimate grievances of these people.

Obviously, the state's goal is to instill fear, to cut down on the number of protesters, and we've seen that happening, because people are risking a lot when they're protesting.

But then at the same time, this type of response also generates more anger in the population.

Some people are saying that these protests have really become, you know, taking the form that people really want the end of the Islamic regime or, you know, really protesting against the Islamic regime itself.

Would you agree?

Yes, many protesters are calling for an end to the entirety of this system, basically, saying that there's no way left for political participation, or for change within the system.

And it's beyond just that feminist uprising or only women's rights request.

We have an intersectional community of protesters.

Also, we've seen laborers', workers' unions joining, we've seen university students, even high-schoolers, children, essentially.

We saw teachers' unions joining, oil workers at some periods.

So, there have been these different periods of an intersectionality of these protesters with different demands, but also a lot of overlap, essentially saying "no" to a system which they see as politically and economically not viable, and also very corrupt.

And in some ethnic areas like Kurdistan, like Baluchestan, protests have been more sustained.

And the dissent, essentially, has taken other forms.

People chant at nights, which is safer.

Sometimes from the rooftops, from their balconies.

They chant "Death to the dictator, death to the regime."

And we see people writing slogans, very political, radical slogans, graffiti essentially, on the wall.

So, it's taken other forms.

And also, one major change is that we see a lot of women just coming out in public without the mandatory hijab.

Not in the form of a big protest anymore, but collective, or individual-but-also-collective cases of civil disobedience.

So, it's continuing as a broader movement, but it's taken different shapes and forms, predominantly because of the response of the state.

Where do you see this movement heading?

I mean, you're in touch with a lot of people: Iranians, women, men on the ground.

What do they tell you?

Do you feel like there's this resolution that they're going to just keep on going?

Or do you think this is going to die down and simmer off?

I don't think it's going to die down completely.

But there have been waves, obviously, people... life goes on.

So, people have to, at some point, go back to their lives, again.

But I think what's going to happen is that we're going to see intervals, and then a return of protests with the next spark.

We don't know what the next spark would be.

In 2019, it was a sudden hike in fuel prices, again, done by the state.

And then people were brought to the street overnight.

This time, the death in custody, killing of a young woman.

If nothing changes, and the grievances and demands are not answered, people are just going to continue to descent, and then probably come out in the streets in intervals that may even get shorter.

Finally, Negar, do you see any significant change coming from the Iranian regime?

Is there any chance that they could take, you know, that they could listen, that there could be some change?

That's hard to say.

It's a question for regime officials.

So far, they haven't shown much flexibility.

In fact, they've doubled it down, you know, not accepting the death in custody of the young woman, not accepting that they're imposing a way of life,

not accepting that it's a corrupt political, economic system, not really addressing the grievances.

The state has just doubled down with violence and crackdown.

So, I don't know.

I think time is running out, and they need to start listening and start addressing, or it will just be too late, if not already.

Negar Mortazavi, thank you so much for your time and insights.

It was really great talking to you today.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

The main slogan of the Iranian protest movement is "Woman, Life, Freedom."

But the price of protesting is high; at best, protestors risk being violently struck down or detained by authorities.

At worst, they could be executed.

More than five months into this movement, neither side appears to be backing down.

And with the stakes this high, it's unclear how much longer and more brutal this human rights stand-off could get.

I'm Del Irani, thanks for your company.

I'll see you next time!