Expectations for the US and Japan at COP27: David Sandalow / Inaugural Fellow, Center on Global Energy Policy, Columbia University

Hello and welcome to DEEPER LOOK from New York.

I'm Del Irani, it's great to have your company.

So far 2022, has brought powerful hurricanes and flooding...

Terrifying wildfires...

And unusually early heat waves - particularly in the Asia-pacific region, hitting countries like India, Pakistan, China and South Korea...

As the frequency and severity of these climate events increases... so are the costs.

The loss and damage caused by climate change is having a significant economic impact...

especially on poorer, developing nations.

And that is one of the many pressing issues that will be discussed at this year's UN Climate Change Conference- or COP 27.

So will world leaders be able to build consensus on how to tackle this issue?

And what is expected to developed countries, such as the US and Japan, at this year's conference?

Joining me now to talk more about this is David Sandalow.

He has served in senior positions at the White House, State Department, and US Department of Energy, where he worked on energy and climate policy.

He's currently the Inaugural Fellow at the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia University.

And he joins me now.

Welcome to the program, David Sandalow.

Great to have you with us.

Del, thanks for having me.

So, the upcoming UN Climate Change Conference will be the 27th conference since 1995.

And, but here we are 26 conferences later, and it doesn't feel like there's been that much progress made on climate change.

So put it in perspective for us.

Why is this year's event important?

And how important is it?

Well, Del, I'm just going to start with a personal note.

Because as you say, this is the 27th since 1995.

Just to date myself, I was a US government representative at that very first meeting.

But you're quite right in saying that the global community has been talking about this issue for a long time, and has not made nearly enough progress.

I think we've made some progress.

You know, I think without these types of international agreements, we'd be in worse shape.

But bottom line is these heat trapping gases are continuing to accumulate in the atmosphere.

Notwithstanding all this talk, and it's causing big problems, as we've seen around the world this summer.

So, what's the significance of this year's event?

I mean, why is it important?

What's going to be on the agenda?

You've talked about how we've just been having these for 27 years.

I've seen these meetings kind of go up and down in terms of the profile they get, their importance.

The one last year which was held in Glasgow, Scotland, was a really important meeting.

First meeting to have been held after the pandemic, there were a number of important agreements that were reached there.

This is, in some ways, a follow-up meeting there - to that.

The one that... and I would say there are a few important aspects of this.

One of them is it's the African Conference of the Parties.

So, it's really going to shine a light on the impact of climate change in Africa.

And that impact, by the way, is extremely serious and extremely troubling.

You know, one tragic piece of this is that African continent has really contributed very little to this problem.

But it's suffering a lot from it.

I know that ahead of this year's conference, there has appeared to be growing pressure from vulnerable countries to prioritize the issue of compensation that, you know,

particularly, you know, to cover the economic losses that have been incurred because of climate events.

Can you explain why this is important? And do you agree?

Is this going to be a key talking point at this year's event?

Del, you're absolutely right.

This is going to be front and center in this year's conference.

And just look at what happened in Pakistan this summer.

Pakistan was flooded by some of the worst rains, and at one point I read a third of the country was underwater.

It's a tragedy.

I mean, 1000s of people died, millions of people are without homes.

And this is, according to scientists a type of event that is extremely unlikely to have happened without global warming.

And poor countries around the world are saying, you know, you cause this problem to the rich world, and you need to help us with payments to manage the problems going forward.

So that's going to be front and center.

I think it's going to be very hard to make progress.

I do not expect significant progress on this issue at this meeting.

Can you tell us a little bit more about how countries in the Asia Pacific, particularly, you know, the smaller, more vulnerable developing countries have been disproportionately affected by climate events?

Do you have any other examples that you can share with us?

I do, Del. Well, I mean,one very important way of sea level rise, and the oceans are rising as a result of global warming.

And they're going to continue rising that, you know, glaciers are melting, flooding, oceans more, and actually, a warmer molecule is bigger than a cold molecule.

So those things add up and sea levels are rising.

There are small island states and lots of coastal areas in Asia, that are under enormous pressure.

I mean, some of the most densely populated places on the planet are coastal areas in Asia.

And that includes Bangladesh, it includes the coast of China, Indian coast, you know, other places as well.

So that's one big impact.

Another big impact is heatwaves.

And, you know, Tokyo had record high temperatures this summer, and in China this summer, there was a heatwave that meteorologists have said, was the worst heatwave ever since temperatures have been recorded.

From the middle of June, until the end of August, Southern and Western China, in particular, experienced extraordinarily high temperatures with devastating impacts.

The rivers went dry and hydropower dams didn't work.

And that's the type of impact that we're already experiencing.

And that we're gonna see even more of in the year ahead.

You know, I hear people say, "Oh, you know, climate change is an issue for tomorrow.

We need to focus on what's important today."

My response is - climate change is happening today!

We're seeing it, we're seeing it in the weather patterns we saw that summer.

And unless we change course, it's going to be much worse in the years ahead.

Yeah, and I guess that is the type of messaging and momentum that a lot of countries are going to be hoping is going to resonate,

particularly with richer nations, so to speak.

Because in pre-COP27 talks, they were really criticized for failing to honor a $100 billion per year funding pledge to help developing countries.

Precisely what we're talking about.

The type of, the more vulnerable countries that are disproportionately affected.

What's the perspective of big nations like the US and Japan, for example, on this issue?

Well, first, I have really good news to report from the United States.

That the United States, we have just passed the most significant climate change legislation ever.

And in fact, they've been a series of statutes in the past two years, which have mobilized a lot of capital to address the climate change issue.

The most recent one mobilized almost $400 billion, and it's across solar power, wind power, electric vehicles, geothermal power, a range of clean energy technologies.

So really, for the first, for the first time in years, the United States is really working to address this issue in a very serious way; The Japanese government is quite serious about this as well.

The Japanese government, it's got some significant challenges in addressing this issue, because nuclear power is zero carbon power.

And as a result, you know, in the wake of the Fukushima disaster, a lot of nuclear plants have been shut down.

But the Japanese government is taking a number of steps to try to address these issues and reduce its emissions in the years ahead.

Both the United States and Japan, by the way, are leading innovators, investing very heavily in research and development of clean energy technologies that we're gonna need in order to solve this problem.

There's a lot happening, but in no country, is there enough happening.

We just aren't making the progress we need to on this issue.

One of the big world events that's been going on predominantly this year has been, of course, the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Can you explain to us the impact that this is having on climate change?

And to what extent is this going to be a talking point at this year's COP27?

I think it's going to very much be on the delegates minds.

And the horrible conflict in the Ukraine and the attack by, the unprovoked attack by Russia, has focused the world's attention on energy security.

And that's, in many ways, because Russia is a major exporter of natural gas and oil out into world markets.

And that's been disrupted as a result of this war.

Think it's been very interesting in Europe, I think this has probably accelerated the energy transition in Europe, because European policymakers are looking at their dependence on fossil fuels and saying this is not sustainable.

And we need to move even quicker to renewable energy.

In the short term, particularly in the next winter, and maybe the winter after, as Europe gets off of Russian gas, and weans itself from Russian gas.

I think some coal plants are going to be turned back on or, and so, there may be a short-term negative effect.

But what I see in the European policy dialogue is a real focus on how the energy transition towards clean energy is even more important, as a result.

But, you know, what, another impact of this horrible war is higher energy prices around the world.

And, and for food, by the way, and Ukraine as a major exporter of food, wheat and other crops and the impact on fertilizers.

So, this war, this horrible war, it's really had reverberating impacts around the world that are quite negative in a lot of ways.

And I'm sure that's going to be a topic of dialogue at COP27.

You mentioned food prices and food sector, as well as, you know, agriculture.

To what extent is, you know, that's going to be discussed in terms of the transition, that the agriculture and the food sector can make to help curb climate change.

And when you look at the Asia Pacific region, what exactly is happening on this issue?

So, this is an issue that's getting more and more attention.

And it's, it's really striking, I think.

So, about 30% of the heat trapping gases in the world come from the food system in some way.

And in some ways, that's not surprising because everybody on the planet eats food every day, almost.

And so, you know, a lot of what we do relates to food and all of the economic activity from making fertilizers, to fertilizing fields, to plowing fields, to shipping food, to refrigerating food, to cooking food, to disposing of food,

all of that kind of adds up to a lot of heat trapping gas emissions.

So, there's big impact to the food system on climate change.

And there's also a big impact of climate change on the food system.

Climate change is making the food system much more vulnerable to disruptions in crops and droughts and other issues.

So, it's a very important issue.

It's one that I think has not gotten enough attention, and which is going to be discussed, certainly at COP27.

And I hope we'll get more and more attention in the years ahead.

And it is an issue that you've been intensely working on for several years.

The issue of climate change and food security, Can you tell us what type of policy are you hoping can be used to really tackle this issue?

And what are you hoping will be done at this year's COP27 in terms of reform in this area?

There's a number of steps that can be taken to help reduce the greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture sector.

They include climate smart agriculture steps, like no-till policies and various ways of maintaining soil carbon.

There are steps that can be taken to prevent leakage in refrigeration, energy efficiency in the food systems, in actually capturing emissions from waste disposal sites.

So, all along the food chain, there's different steps that can be taken.

And one big one, actually, which is really worth highlighting is just reducing food waste.

There is an enormous amount of food that is wasted every year.

And so, all these all these measures make a lot of sense.

And I think just having governments think about these policies as climate policies, introducing them into their policy mix, I think, it can make a big difference.

Now, you mentioned that European countries have been you know, leading the charge on the climate change issue, and of course, so has the US, which has got a very important role to play, globally.

But what role can Asia Pacific countries such as Japan, play at this year's COP27?

And, you know, what are the expectations of Asia Pacific countries to help mitigate climate change?

Well, Japan is the world's fifth largest producer of heat trapping gases, and Japan is in a very important country.

And so, in that regard, so in just to continuing to reduce emissions.

You know, in the years ahead, Japan has made a net zero pledge and moving towards net zero emissions is very important.

You know, China is by far the world's largest emitter of heat trapping gases.

In fact, they're more emissions from China than from the United States, Japan and Europe combined.

So, there is no solution to this problem without China.

So, there's an enormous amount that can be done there.

And I think Japanese cooperation with China in this in this area can make a big difference.

David Sandalow, thank you so much for your time.

Look forward to discussing this again at a future date.

Del, thank you for having me.

When it comes to tackling climate change, each country must do their part - and some more than others.

For example, China is the world's largest emitter of greenhouse gases.

And globally, we cannot collectively tackle climate change without China's cooperation.

Join us next time, as we continue our conversation with David Sandalow and talk more about China's role in tackling global emissions and why it's so important.

I'm Del Irani, thanks for your company.

I'll see you next time!