Challenges to US Democracy After the Trump Era: Laurence Tribe / Professor Emeritus of Constitutional Law, Harvard University

Hello and welcome to DEEPER LOOK from New York.

I'm Del Irani, it's great to have your company.

On January 6th 2021, these images shocked the world...

Thousands of supporters of then-President Donald Trump violently stormed the U.S. capitol.

The goal was to stop the certification of Joe Biden's presidential victory.

A U.S. congressional committee has been investigating this assault and claims President Trump didn't do enough to stop the violence.

But there are many Americans who still don't believe this.

And then, there are other issues shaking U.S. democracy...

Such as the recent historic decision by the U.S. Supreme court to overturn national abortion rights, after nearly 50 years.

So, what does all this mean for the state of U.S. democracy?

And where exactly is it headed?

Joining me now to talk more about this is Laurence Tribe.

He's Professor Emeritus of Constitutional Law at Harvard University.

He's written around 115 books and articles, including his work American Constitutional law, which has been cited more than any other legal text since 1950.

He's argued more than 30 cases in the US Supreme Court, and his former law students and research assistants include people like former US President Barack Obama.

Welcome to the program, Laurence Tribe. Great to have you with us.

Great to be with you, Del.

So, I want to begin by asking you, where were you on January 6th, 2021?

Well, I was at home watching television, I think, and feeling quite shocked at the what I was seeing.

I had never seen anything like it.

It did remind me of 911.

But this time, instead of foreign terrorists, it looked like and apparently was domestic terrorists.

And they were carrying all kinds of weapons.

They were breaking through glass.

I saw a gallows, where they were talking about hanging the Vice President of the United States.

They were talking about grabbing Nancy Pelosi, the speaker, and dragging her out.

I mean, I know Nancy Pelosi, and the very thought that we had that kind of threat to the center of our democratic system was, and continues to be shocking.

And I wanted really to know more about who was responsible.

Explain to us how close did America's democracy come to the brink of collapse on that day?

Well, there have been many trends in American history that that are a little scary.

I mean, there has been a good bit of racism, there's been a lot of violence, there are lots of guns.

I mean, you know, in a typical year, in Japan, one or two people die from gunfire in a typical year.

Here there are 10s of 1000s.

And when you have a country that is awash in guns with lots of people who don't really believe in democracy.

And when you have a president of the sort we had then, who doesn't seem to believe in anything but his own power, the whole system could collapse.

It came very close to falling apart.

Last time, and unfortunately, many of the same trends are at work even now.

The man who was responsible for the violent attack, really an insurrection on the U.S. Capitol, threatens to run for president again.

And even if he doesn't, there are lots of his followers who simply believe that power for its own sake, is a good thing.

They don't really believe in government of the people, by the people, for the people.

And so, we are in great danger.

We're continuing danger.

And it's been more than a year since these attacks, and the committee has been holding hearings on the January 6th attacks, they presented their findings.

In fact, so much so that they've said there'll be even more coming later this year.

As an expert on constitutional law, Professor, what's your take on the hearing so far?

I mean, has this been the best way to go about explaining and understanding what happened on January 6th?

I think the hearings have done a remarkably good job in explaining what happened and illustrating it pictorially and with testimony.

All of the witnesses, all of them have been people who were originally followers of Donald Trump.

They're all Republicans.

They're not partisan opponents of the former president.

And yet they have painted a picture of the truthfulness of which really is impossible to question, because there has been a great deal of corroboration, and the picture they paint is a very scary one.

It's a picture of someone who was president, lost election, perpetrated the myth that there was massive fraud when there is no evidence at all of such fraud.

And I think that 10s of millions of Americans are listening.

Now, there are some people who will just not believe it, no matter what.

And that is a scary thing.

When the country doesn't have a shared view of what is true of factual reality, the underpinnings of democratic self-government are in danger.

You have to have at least a common sense of what the facts are.

And when that is gone, then we're really in trouble.

I guess, what's the next step?

What happens after these hearings?

Will President Trump be formally charged with any crimes?

And if so, what would that look like?

Well, the Attorney General of the United States whom I know and trust Merrick Garland, was also a student of mine.

I'm hoping that he will soon bring an indictment against Donald Trump for several crimes that have been quite clearly proven.

An attempt to overturn a fair democratic election violates several federal criminal statutes, including the laws, under which if you are convicted, you can never run for office again.

The Attorney General has said that politics will neither drive him to indict anyone nor deter him from indicting anyone.

He's going to follow the evidence where it leads.

I believe him.

I just hope he moves even more quickly, because we really don't have much time.

The Republicans may well win the midterm elections.

If they do, they make it hard for the Justice Department to continue its work.

They don't control the executive branch, although they could if they steal the election next time or win it legitimately.

But in the meantime, Congress in our system has the power of the purse.

They could basically limit the funding that is available to this comprehensive investigation that's going on, not only by the committee, but in the Justice Department.

And despite the hearings, you know, they're not watching the hearings, they refuse to believe the truth.

What do you do when you have a section of the population like that?

I mean, how do you deal with this proportion of the public?

We can outvote them. We can outvote them.

Trying to talk reason to people who will not listen to reason who just don't believe facts, is a waste of vocal cords.

It's just a waste of effort.

You know, I used to think we have to understand the opposition, get inside their heads.

Well, I think we respect them as human beings.

They have the right to believe what they believe; however insane it may be.

But they don't have the right to impose the tyranny of the minority on this country.

They don't have the right to destroy democracy.

And we have to fight them with all the legal tools available to us.

And that means not staying home, when we could be voting.

It means becoming politically active.

We have to collectively out vote those who just don't believe the truth.

Well, I'm kind of switching gears to another really significant high-profile case in the U.S. that made headlines around the world.

It is, of course, the U.S. Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, and basically, overturn the legal protection for abortion rights after nearly 50 years.

What impact is this going to have on, I guess the future of you know, women's rights in America?

And how does this, how has this impacted or reshape the U.S. Constitution?

Well, the Constitution itself isn't being reshaped, but it's being interpreted in really perverse ways.

As you say, for 50 years, women have had the right to control their own bodies guaranteed by American law.

Whole generations have grown up taking that for granted.

The U.S. Supreme Court without really offering any good reasons, just because finally they have the votes, including three justices put on the court by Donald Trump simply said, "No, it's all over."

You don't have that right.

Women can no longer even if they were raped, even if they were the victims of incest.

They no longer can control their own bodies.

I don't think American people, women especially are going to take that lying down.

I think there's going to be enormous pushback against the court.

If enough people vote, we might be able to pass a national law that puts in the federal statutes, the right that had been protected under the Constitution.

This decision was made after three judges who were appointed by then President Donald Trump were elected to the U.S. Supreme court.

How concerned are you about the influence of the politics on the U.S. Supreme Court?

I'm very concerned.

It's always been the case, that the basic meaning of constitutional terms like liberty, and equality, has been a matter of judgment.

And judgment is influenced by one's political as well as moral and legal philosophy.

But as you say, suddenly, it's become quite partisan.

And it's religiously driven as well.

There are some religions that insist that even though it's inside a woman's body, a fertilized ovum is a human being.

Somehow it has a soul.

Well, that's a religious belief, people are entitled to have it.

But when you have a minority view like that, and it manages to capture the imagination of five of the nine Supreme Court justices, and they impose that religious view,

that theological view on an entire nation, that's really not what the court is supposed to do.

And I'm terribly concerned.

I think, among other things, the respect that people have for the Supreme Court has plummeted.

It's gone down to the lowest level it's ever been.

Something like only one person out of four now has respect for that institution.

And that's dangerous because in a nation like this, if you don't have an independent court that can be respected by people on all sides of the political spectrum,

we can descend into chaos and anarchy and violence.

What could be the potential fallout from this Supreme Court decision?

And how does this bring the legitimacy of the Supreme Court into question?

Well, the Supreme Court legitimacy depends on a number of things.

It depends on its reasons that it gives for its judgments in the long run.

And when it doesn't really give reasons that makes sense to very many people, and insists on a view that almost everybody recognizes is quite sectarian and religious,

that really undermines its ability to resolve the deepest disputes.

So that when the court both takes rights away from women, and then gives more rights to people who want to go into public with concealed weapons,

in a nation that is already awash in heavy gunfire, with mass slaughters every weekend, we have the worst of all worlds.

We have a court that makes it hard to regulate weapons of death.

And that takes away from women the ability to regulate their own role as potential vessels of life.

And the fact that it doesn't reflect a majority view of the American people, doesn't in itself make it wrong, but it shows what a what a crazy topsy turvy world we have.

How do you see the future of democracy in the U.S.?

I mean, can it overcome the current challenge and the divisions that are faces?

Well, over time, perhaps.

I mean, I have four grandchildren, I think their generation will do a better job than we did.

But I don't think that it's in the DNA of the American people to accept fascism.

We fought a bloody war to overcome fascism.

I think we are not going to simply lie down and allow domestic fascists to take over.

But it's going to be a tough, a tough haul.

And I maintain hope only because there are other generations coming up who I think will, in the end, helped to restore the democracy that we are now close to losing.

Thank you so much for your time and insights today.

It was truly wonderful chatting with you.

It's wonderful talking to you.

The United States has long been considered one of the most successful models of democracy in the world.

In fact, for decades, the U.S. institutions have worked tirelessly building and supporting democracy overseas - in the hopes it will a create safer and more prosperous world.

But recent events are shaking the foundations of democracy at home...

And unless these internal divisions are resolved, they have the power to undermine the U.S.' image and position abroad as the leader of the democratic, free world.

I'm Del Irani, thanks for your company.

I'll see you next time!