
Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and its veto of a Security Council resolution condemning the action, has reignited calls to reform the UN. Experts will discuss ways to make the body more effective.
Moderator
Takao Minori
NHK WORLD-JAPAN News Anchor
Panelists
Karin Landgren
Executive Director, Security Council Report
Former UN Under-Secretary-General
Brett Schaefer
Senior Research Fellow, Heritage Foundation
Aude Darnal
Nonresident Fellow, Stimson Center
Shinyo Takahiro
Dean and Professor, Kwansei Gakuin University
Former Ambassador to UN
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Nearly a year has passed since Russia invaded Ukraine.
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The United Nations Security Council has been ineffective in stopping the war,
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paralyzed by Russia, which has the power to veto.
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The Council's inability to stop the aggression has made it the target of criticism.
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"The UN system must be reformed so the right to veto is not a right to kill."
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This has led to calls for change.
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Many member states are also voicing an urgent need to reform the Security Council.
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"Members of the UN Security Council, including the United States,
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should consistently uphold and defend the UN Charter and refrain,
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refrain from the use of the veto."
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"The call for reformed multilateralism,
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with the reforms of the Security Council at its core,
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enjoys considerable support among UN members."
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The United Nations was founded in 1945
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to preserve international peace and security after World War II.
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Since then, the number of member states has quadrupled,
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and the international order has changed drastically.
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"Even diplomats who gather here at the U.N. headquarters
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say its ‘credibility and relevance' are now on the line.
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This edition of GLOBAL AGENDA from New York
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looks at how the world's only truly universal global organization
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must change in order to meet the needs of the times."
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Welcome to GLOBAL AGENDA from our studios here in New York.
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The United Nations was established to maintain world peace and stability,
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develop friendly ties among nations,
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and create a center for harmonizing efforts to solve problems.
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But now, people are beginning to wonder, is it out of date?
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Is it really effective and responding to the challenges of the modern world?
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Our guests today will help us answer those questions.
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First, let's go to Karin. Karin Landgren
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has worked with the UN for over 35 years.
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She's a former UN Under-Secretary-General,
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has led United Nations peace operations in Liberia, Burundi and Nepal,
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and has addressed issues related to the Ebola epidemic, child protection, and refugees.
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Thank you for joining us.
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Pleasure.
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So, Karen, what would you say are the weaknesses and limitations that
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the United Nations has shown through this war in Ukraine?
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The Russian invasion of Ukraine showed in particular the limitations of the UN Security Council,
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more than any other part of the United Nations.
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In particular, it showed that the UN, which is,
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through the Security Council responsible for maintaining international peace and security,
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is not able to prevent an aggression of this type.
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And once it's happened, is not able to reverse it.
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What we also saw is that the members of the Security Council
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could not agree even to condemn that invasion,
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because of Russia's veto of any resolution that they might want to put forward.
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Let's go now to Brett.
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Brett Schaefer is a Fellow at the Heritage Foundation.
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He was appointed by the UN General Assembly to serve as an expert
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on the UN Committee on Contributions from 2019 to 2021.
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He's written extensively on foreign policy and economic development,
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especially as they relate to the UN and its affiliated organizations.
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Brett too, thank you for joining us.
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Thank you.
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And what would you say are the weaknesses that we've seen at the United Nations?
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Well, I agree with Karin. I think it's pretty obvious that the United Nations Security Council
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has been unable to act decisively in response to Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine.
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And that is because Russia has a veto
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and is able to stop anything that the UN Security Council
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decides to do in terms of a decision or a resolution.
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But I want to point out that this is not necessarily a mistake.
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The UN Security Council was set up with the permanent members to have vetoes,
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because the major powers at the time, the victors in World War Two,
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essentially would not join an organization that potentially could act against their interests.
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And so, the veto was put in there by design
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to ensure that the great powers after World War Two
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would be able to participate in the UN system,
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and be able to support its operations,
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for the most part, and that was a protective measure
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to make sure that it was inclusive of the great powers at the time,
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which was essential for the organization to be relevant.
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Thank you. Let's go now to Aude.
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Aude Darnal joins us from the island of Martinique.
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She's with the Stimson Center and recently launched a project there
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on the role of the Global South in the world order. Thank you, Aude.
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Thank you for having me.
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And what would you say to this point?
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Like my fellow guests just mentioned,
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I think that the paralysis of the United Security Council
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has really been enlightened once more by the war in Ukraine.
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The inability to take action by the most powerful body of the United Nation,
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because it is the only one whose resolutions are binding,
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contrary to the General Assembly.
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But beyond that, obviously, there is a question of the veto hold by the P5 members.
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But beyond that, I think that it also shed some light once more about the frustration of countries
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from the Global South about the lack of representation within that body,
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the UN Security Council in particular,
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which is composed of 15 members,
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five permanent and ten non-permanent members.
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This lack of representation has been a major point of frustration,
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which has been voiced by different leaders from the Global South.
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Thank you, Aude. Let's go now to Shinyo Takahiro.
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He joins us from Osaka. He is Dean and Professor of Kwansei Gakuin University,
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he served as Ambassador at the Permanent Mission of Japan to the UN from 2006 to 2008,
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and then, as Japan's ambassador to Germany.
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Taka, thank you for joining us.
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Thank you very much. Very pleased to be with you all.
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Well, as to the question.
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I would like to say that United Nations itself as a whole is functioning pretty well,
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particularly in the socio-economic field,
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including the SDGs fighting against poverty and so on, so forth.
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But at the same time, I think the most difficult issue
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and also the malfunctioning is the Security Council,
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the political and security area.
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Particularly, I think the Security Council has lost its credibility and effectiveness,
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particularly through this, the invasion of Russia, against the Ukraine.
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And also, I think, it clearly shows that the members of the Security Council
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don't have any concert.
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Concert among big powers is totally lacking.
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Thank you. All of our guests have already pointed
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out one of the biggest obstacles to the United Nations
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has been a special power given to five countries
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with a special status in the Security Council, the right to veto.
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The Security Council is the main organ responsible for maintaining international peace and security.
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Its primary responsibilities are recommending peaceful resolutions to conflict,
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establishing UN Peacekeeping Operations,
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and applying economic sanctions.
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And the Council is the only UN body that can make decisions
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that are binding on all member states.
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The Security Council is made up of five permanent members,
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and ten non-permanent members whose terms last 2 years.
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Permanent members have veto power,
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and no resolution can be adopted if one of the 5 members opposes it.
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This framework was designed to help the Great Powers work together
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to preserve global peace and security.
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Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991,
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Russia has used its veto the most, 32 times,
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often over Syria's civil war in support of the Assad regime.
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Next is the United States, with 17,
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using the veto to support Israel regarding issues with Palestine.
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China has used the power 16 times,
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most recently regarding sanctions against North Korea
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over its renewed ballistic missile launches.
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In the last year, Russia has vetoed two resolutions regarding Ukraine,
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one calling for the immediate withdrawal of Russian troops,
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and another condemning Russia's declared annexation of four Ukrainian regions.
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What must be done to bring about peace and security?
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Time and again member states have debated changes to the veto power.
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France, which last used the veto in 1989 proposed in 2013
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that the permanent members collectively and voluntarily limit their use of veto
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in the event of a mass atrocity.
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The proposal was co-sponsored by Mexico and supported by 100 countries
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but has since stalled.
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And what about the number of permanent members,
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and which countries should really have that status?
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Karin, the last change in the Security Council membership was in 1965,
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when it was expanded from 11 to 15 members,
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but that was an increase of non-permanent members,
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not those with veto power. So why has there been no progress since?
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It's been very difficult to get action on changing the Security Council.
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Partly, for decades, the council was inert during the Cold War.
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And it was really only in the 90s post-cold war
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that it revived and blossomed and was able to do a great deal in the 1990s in particular.
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So that's also when serious discussion
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took off on what changes might there be in the council
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to make it more representative of the world.
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Changing the UN Charter,
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which would be needed to change either the membership of the Council
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or the veto power of the permanent members is a complex process.
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It's like changing a constitution.
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It hasn't been made easy.
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So first of all, the proposal needs to be adopted
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by two thirds of the members of the General Assembly.
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And then it needs to be ratified by two thirds of member states,
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parliaments, congress, diet what have you.
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So, this is lengthy and complicated and that has to include
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all the parliaments of the permanent members.
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Step one needs to be UN member states
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agreeing on how they want to see the reform take place.
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And there is no agreement at the moment on that.
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Brett, US President Biden said in his speech last September at the General Assembly
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that he wants the Security Council to include permanent seats for,
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in his words, "those nations we've long supported,
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and countries from Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean."
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Now, how serious do you think he was when he suggested this?
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I think he wanted to make a good impression in the General Assembly.
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Those countries that they've long supported include India and Japan.
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And so, they were talking about adding permanent seats,
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at least for Latin America and Africa in addition to those two countries.
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More than likely, he's talking about a larger expansion,
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because those regions want more than one, just, permanent seat.
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But he knows that the prospects for that actually happening are extraordinarily unlikely.
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For instance, China would be very concerned about Japan or India
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becoming permanent members of the Security Council, both countries have aspired to that.
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In Latin America, there's a dissention among the countries there
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as to who actually should be the permanent member.
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Brazil wants it, Mexico wants it, Argentina wants it.
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In Africa, you had the same thing.
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Egypt, Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa,
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there are a multitude of countries that want to have a permanent seat on the Security Council,
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not all of them are going to become permanent seat, permanent members.
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And that leaves aside the fact that you're talking about also an expansion of elected seats.
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So, from the United States' perspective, historically, this has been the issue.
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It's not necessarily that a new permanent member be added to the Security Council,
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or that some expansion occurs.
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They don't want a significant expansion.
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As we've seen, in the current context,
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the Security Council becomes easily paralyzed,
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especially when the interests of great powers are at stake,
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the permanent members can exercise their veto.
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As you add more permanent members, potentially with the veto,
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that dynamic becomes worse.
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And the likelihood of the Security Council seizing up over many more issues becomes likely.
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Aude, how are nations in the Global South reacting to such proposals?
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Obviously, they're the ones who would be most affected.
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Yes, indeed. The Global South countries have been prominent advocates
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for the reform of the UN and the UNSC in particular.
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However, I think it is important to really underline the fact that the Global South is not a monolith.
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I mean, we're talking about countries from across the planet, across regions,
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Latin America, Asia, Middle East, Africa.
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And obviously, the same way that this there is no consensus between the West and the Global South,
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there is no consensus in between those regions,
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but also inside, within those regions.
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So again, I think that this lack of consensus
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is really a challenge for this reform to happen.
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And this is not just about the representation issue.
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I mean, obviously, the question is
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how many states will be added to the permanent or non-permanent membership?
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Who will get those seats?
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But there is also the question of the veto.
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Even on this question, which is critical for the reform to actually occur,
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there is no consensus.
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Some want to abolish it, some others who want to extend it,
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and some others do not want that.
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And so, until there is a consensus, which is quite unlikely at the moment,
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to be frank, it will be very difficult to see reform take place.
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Karin, did you want to add to that?
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It is noteworthy that two permanent members, the UK and France,
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have voluntarily abstained from using the veto since 1989.
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Neither one has used the veto since then.
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So, there is a whole move to see greater voluntary renunciation of veto use.
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And it's interesting that this is one of the points and principles
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that the US has brought out in its new commitments of last September,
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that they also want to see veto use, including their own,
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be very rare, very infrequent.
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Brett, you wanted to?
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As you mentioned, France and the UK have voluntarily not vetoed anything since 1989.
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But they would,
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if they thought that their interests are going to be negatively impacted by a resolution in the Security Council.
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They have not said that they will not veto. They just have chosen not to.
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The United States, Russia and China have obviously cast vetoes over that time.
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And they will continue to do so. So, this is a feature of the Security Council,
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that is going to continue.
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So, we can lament the fact that national interests are impeding the work of the Council,
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or its decisiveness in situations such as what's going on in Ukraine.
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But it is a permanent fixture of the Council and something
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that we're going to have to acknowledge going forward.
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We also should acknowledge that if you add more permanent members with vetoes,
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this problem is going to get worse, not better.
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But there are other provisions within the Security Council
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that don't necessarily have to, how should I say,
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use the veto.
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For example, I thought that
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a party that is involved in a conflict,
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currently involved, directly involved in a conflict,
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even a power with the veto, is not allowed to use that power.
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That they should be abstaining if they are direct party to the conflict.
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Is that not true? However, we are seeing Russia who is directly involved with this,
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using its veto power. Taka, you had your hand up?
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Yes, exactly. I think that when you come to the matter of the veto,
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I think, to change the charter is very, very provoking,
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and I think it is almost impossible.
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So that maybe I think what we are able to do is,
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limit the use of the veto in accordance with the present regulations, or the charter provisions.
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And as you rightly said, Article 27 and 3
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stipulates that the directly involved members should abstain from the voting,
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when it comes to the peaceful solution of the matter.
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And that is Article 27, Paragraph 3.
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And this has not been observed.
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So, I think this practice must be changed.
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And this will also make it easy for the solution of the problem,
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peaceful solution of the problem.
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So, I think the members of the Security Council, not only permanent,
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but also the non-permanent, must stick to the principle of Article 27 Paragraph 3.
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And also, I think the veto restriction is very difficult to be done in the Security Council itself.
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They can only argue in the General Assembly.
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It is the function of the General Assembly to limit the charter provisions
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or to give some new thinking in the form of the resolutions.
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Karin, could you jump in on Article 27? Explain further what you think.
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I think that a real issue today would be who is going to define
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who is a party to a dispute under this article.
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No one is going to tell the Security Council
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who should recuse themselves from voting.
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It's up to the Security Council to decide.
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In the coming days, speaking now, in early February,
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Russia is initiating a debate on the supply of Western weaponry to Ukraine.
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Obviously, the arguments are going to be made about who all might be parties to this dispute in Ukraine.
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So there are some built in traps and difficulties to assuming
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that Article 27 can be applied to prevent aggressors from using their vetoes.
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What we see some UN member states doing now is at least mentioning the Article
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to make sure it doesn't get completely lost to history.
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Recently, Ecuador, a new council member,
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has been talking about the application of 27-3.
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So arguably, that's a first step.
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Aude, if I may go to you.
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It's obvious that the African nations,
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and of course, those in Latin America as well,
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have been asking for membership for better representation within the Security Council.
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They have been talking about the importance of having more of a place in the Security Council.
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Right now, we don't have any African state or any state from Latin America
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within the UN Security Council's permanent membership.
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We only have one Asian state.
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And that lack of representation means basically,
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that those countries don't get a say in major decision-making processes.
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And again, that leads back to the frustration that
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we've been hearing over the past year, since the war in Ukraine started.
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Obviously, those are not new issues.
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But again, the war in Ukraine really shed more light onto this.
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Thank you, Aude. Well, Russia's repeated vetoes led to a new provision last April.
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When any permanent member uses its veto,
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an emergency special session of the General Assembly is called within ten days,
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calling that power to explain their veto.
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Now to break the impasse in the Security Council, the General Assembly is
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taking on an expanded role and growing its influence.
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The General Assembly adopted a new resolution in April last year.
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When a permanent member exercises its veto, the Assembly holds a meeting,
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where all UN members can scrutinize and comment on the veto.
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"It is so decided."
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Russia condemned this decision.
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"Today's decision is an attempt to exert pressure on the permanent members of the Security Council.
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This is an approach that we categorically reject."
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Liechtenstein's Ambassador, who drafted the resolution,
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said it is intended to discourage the use of vetoes.
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"In a way to say, this is a meaningful step
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to put the General Assembly in its rightful role.
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We as member states are part of the change."
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The General Assembly also called for a number of emergency special sessions to counter Russia's vetoes.
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Immediately after the onset of the invasion,
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a resolution was passed calling for the immediate withdrawal of Russian troops.
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"The fighting in Ukraine must stop.
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It's raging across the country from air, land and sea."
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The resolution was adopted with the approval of 141 countries.
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But five countries including Russia and North Korea voted against it.
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Thirty-five countries including China and India abstained.
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While many countries welcome decisions by the General Assembly,
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resolutions are not legally binding.
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Karin, could you explain to us what's important or significant about this new provision?
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The veto initiative is really important.
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It's been an idea that's been around for a while,
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and Ukraine was the catalyst that made it happen in the General Assembly.
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So, it means that all member states can weigh in on something
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that has happened where there's been a veto in the Security Council.
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It doesn't compel those who vetoed to explain what they did.
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They get to speak first, if they want to speak.
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More importantly, it lets all members express their views on the issue and on the veto.
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So, we saw it used three times last year.
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I think it's too early to say whether it really influences the politics around the use of the veto.
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But it does involve all member states in a significant way in those discussions.
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25m 55s
Brett, if you want to add?
-
25m 57s
Sure, I think that it does signal sort of the weight of public opinion
-
26m 03s
in the General Assembly on the matter at hand.
-
26m 06s
However, I don't think it's going to significantly influence the member states
-
26m 10s
who are casting the veto, the permanent members.
-
26m 13s
Because in the Security Council, almost always those permanent members
-
26m 17s
when they cast the veto, explain their vote.
-
26m 19s
And they do this in a public way.
-
26m 21s
So, they're already doing this to some extent.
-
26m 24s
Also, when a country decides to cast a veto, it's a very serious thing.
-
26m 29s
And they put a lot of thought into that before they do cast that veto.
-
26m 34s
Knowing that there's going to be some ramifications for it, there's going to be some criticism for that.
-
26m 38s
And they decide to do that anyway.
-
26m 41s
Aude, you can see which countries are in line with certain countries
-
26m 48s
when it comes to their votes in the General Assembly.
-
26m 53s
In criticizing Russia,
-
26m 55s
what can we say about the legitimacy then
-
26m 58s
of bringing these items to the General Assembly?
-
27m 01s
What can we say about the power balance that's happening inside the General Assembly as well
-
27m 06s
when it comes to issues such as the war in Ukraine?
-
27m 10s
We need to acknowledge the fact that
-
27m 13s
Russia has been working quite well at strengthening its relations
-
27m 18s
with countries from the Global South, in particular, in Africa, economic security ties.
-
27m 24s
We can talk also about our economic ties between
-
27m 27s
Russia and Brazil and Latin America, for instance.
-
27m 30s
And so those votes really showcase once again,
-
27m 34s
national interests and a will for these countries to remain independent.
-
27m 42s
So, maintain that policy independence
-
27m 47s
and protect their interests and their relations with both worlds,
-
27m 52s
the multiple partners, the multiple countries involved,
-
27m 55s
whether that's the United States, Russia, but also its influential partner, China.
-
28m 04s
And so, once more, it's not just a black and white situation.
-
28m 11s
And I think that those votes, once again,
-
28m 14s
really display the fact that these countries want to advance and protect their interests
-
28m 19s
and not simply accept pressure from one side or the other.
-
28m 27s
May I jump in with one financing point?
-
28m 29s
One appeal we're hearing from members of the Global South,
-
28m 34s
is that they would like the West to pay as much attention to their priority issues,
-
28m 40s
as the West has been paying to Ukraine for the past year
-
28m 43s
and put as much funding into issues of their concern,
-
28m 47s
as the West has put into Ukraine.
-
28m 49s
And that means that forthcoming summits and discussions on the SDGs,
-
28m 57s
on climate financing, even a water conference coming up next month,
-
29m 01s
have taken on fresh importance,
-
29m 04s
because these are now settings where the West is going to be judged to live up to its commitments.
-
29m 09s
If I can ask Takahiro, yes, please jump in.
-
29m 12s
Yes, I have been waiting.
-
29m 14s
And I would like to say that
-
29m 16s
the frustration is of course on the side of the Global South, always.
-
29m 21s
The permanent members of the Security Council want things to be dealt with
-
29m 27s
within the framework of the Security Council and not referring to the General Assembly.
-
29m 33s
That is an overstretch of the Security Council's function.
-
29m 36s
And that should also be one reason for the Global South to discuss this issue
-
29m 42s
within the framework of the General Assembly.
-
29m 44s
And I think it should be done because they have one vote.
-
29m 49s
One country, one vote. There is no veto at all.
-
29m 53s
But I'd like to say that the General Assembly is not a panacea of course, not alone.
-
29m 58s
Because 193 countries are too many to decide
-
30m 03s
on very important things which need to be decided
-
30m 08s
rather sooner or later soon.
-
30m 11s
And in this case, I think we should also reform the General Assembly agenda
-
30m 19s
mandate issue, and also the topics of discussions.
-
30m 23s
Because they are discussing so many things and overlapping too much.
-
30m 29s
So, that I think the streamlining of the agenda to be discussed,
-
30m 35s
should also be done.
-
30m 37s
And I think these kinds of efforts should also, must be made with regard to the General Assembly.
-
30m 43s
And doing that, I think, we can also expand a little bit the function of the General Assembly,
-
30m 51s
in terms of the solution of political issues or security issues,
-
30m 56s
when the Security Council does not function.
-
30m 58s
Thank you.
-
30m 59s
Well, there is more to the UN than its two main bodies.
-
31m 02s
Over the decades the UN has spawned numerous organizations and special actions
-
31m 07s
to negotiate cooperation and solve crises in times of war.
-
31m 11s
They've proven effective even in Ukraine.
-
31m 23s
Around 8 million people are estimated to have fled Ukraine since the beginning of Russia's invasion.
-
31m 30s
The UN has played a large role in providing emergency assistance,
-
31m 34s
such as food and shelter.
-
31m 40s
UN agencies have raised more than $2 billion dollars in humanitarian aid for Ukraine.
-
31m 50s
The UN has also led efforts to avoid a global food crisis.
-
31m 57s
Concerns over food shortages grew when Ukrainian grain exports stagnated.
-
32m 05s
UN Chief Antonio Guterres, along with Turkey,
-
32m 08s
brokered a deal between Russia and Ukraine to get the supply moving again.
-
32m 15s
Exports of grain and fertilizer have resumed since the agreement.
-
32m 21s
"Getting more food and fertilizer out of Ukraine and Russia
-
32m 25s
is critical to further calm commodity markets and lower prices for consumers."
-
32m 31s
The UN has also been involved in ensuring the safety of nuclear power plants caught in the crossfire.
-
32m 40s
The Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant, one of the largest in Europe, is located in Ukraine,
-
32m 45s
and has been occupied by the Russian military.
-
32m 50s
The area around the plant has been bombarded repeatedly.
-
32m 55s
The UN and Turkey worked with Ukraine and Russia
-
32m 58s
to conduct an inspection by the UN's nuclear watchdog,
-
33m 02s
the International Atomic Energy Agency.
-
33m 07s
"This is something that cannot happen,
-
33m 09s
and this is why we are trying to put in place certain mechanisms."
-
33m 14s
The IAEA still has experts stationed at the power plant,
-
33m 18s
so they can keep track of the situation on the ground.
-
33m 26s
Karin, how would you view the efforts of the Secretary General?
-
33m 30s
Extremely important. I mean, there is so much more to the UN than the Security Council.
-
33m 35s
And the crisis over Ukraine has shown the impact
-
33m 39s
on the world of grain, fuel, fertilizer challenges.
-
33m 45s
The Secretary General has stepped in and,
-
33m 49s
I think, shown the value of continued diplomacy and engagement, has pulled in other countries
-
33m 55s
who may be effective interlocutors in this context.
-
33m 59s
We sometimes overlook how much authority the Secretary General has,
-
34m 03s
and that is written into the Charter, to take initiatives,
-
34m 08s
whether that is to bring issues to the Security Council, or to take initiatives in his own right.
-
34m 13s
So, we are seeing some of the things he's able to do through this crisis.
-
34m 18s
Brett, what do you think of the efforts made by Guterres at this moment?
-
34m 23s
And it doesn't have to be, of course, just him,
-
34m 24s
but the overall role of the Secretary General and the importance there.
-
34m 29s
Sure, he was instrumental in negotiating the Grain Deal.
-
34m 33s
And I think that has had a significant impact on the global food shortage.
-
34m 38s
I think that shouldn't be overlooked.
-
34m 39s
Other parts of the UN organization that had played a significant role
-
34m 44s
in Ukraine and around the world, the High Commissioner for Refugees,
-
34m 50s
the World Food Program, and many other organizations
-
34m 54s
that are addressing the ramifications of conflict around the world.
-
34m 59s
One thing I want to say about the Security Council
-
35m 04s
is we focused a lot on the three vetoes this year
-
35m 09s
and the inability to address the situation in Ukraine.
-
35m 13s
But I think we need to not overemphasize that the Security Council hasn't done anything.
-
35m 18s
There have been a number of resolutions that it's passed this year
-
35m 21s
in terms of renewing the mandates for various peacekeeping operations,
-
35m 24s
addressing situations in Burma and in Libya, and other things.
-
35m 29s
So, it seems like this Security Council is compartmentalizing the situation in Ukraine,
-
35m 35s
allowing these other issues where there's not such significant disagreement, to proceed.
-
35m 40s
And that's probably a good thing to address those situations around the world.
-
35m 44s
And I think we need to acknowledge that.
-
35m 47s
But writ large, I think we also shouldn't be
-
35m 53s
deluded by what's happened in the post-cold war era,
-
35m 56s
where there was a significant increase in the amount of activity by the Security Council,
-
36m 01s
in terms of addressing international peace and security issues.
-
36m 05s
Because the bulk of the history of the organization from 1945 until the Cold War ended,
-
36m 12s
was actually a much more paralyzed
-
36m 15s
and a much more restricted activity by the UN Security Council.
-
36m 18s
And so, what we've seen over the past, say,
-
36m 21s
five to ten years is more a return to the norm.
-
36m 25s
And I think we need to adjust our expectations not on when this Security Council was acting,
-
36m 30s
unusually cooperative, but instead maybe anticipating a return
-
36m 34s
to what it was for the first 45 years.
-
36m 39s
Taka, what do you think of the influences
-
36m 43s
that other organizations related to the United Nations outside of the Security Council,
-
36m 48s
the General Assembly have on the rest of the organization?
-
36m 51s
And of course, the role of the Secretary General himself?
-
36m 55s
Well, first, I think the role of the Secretary General, I would like to say that it is very important,
-
37m 01s
difficult for the Secretary General to decide when to intervene in the conflict,
-
37m 06s
not too early, not too late.
-
37m 09s
So, I think the solution proper, the finding of the time,
-
37m 15s
in accordance with the advice coming from his aids is important.
-
37m 20s
And Mr. Guterres was a little bit late.
-
37m 23s
So, I think this is a very highly political, sensitive issue,
-
37m 30s
but I think the Secretary General must perhaps use his power more
-
37m 37s
which is not always stipulated in the Charter of the Security Council.
-
37m 43s
And coming to your question, the external
-
37m 49s
and the bodies outside of the United Nations, how to work with them.
-
37m 52s
I think what is more important is to work with the G20.
-
37m 58s
And I think, more discussions and more collaboration must be made
-
38m 04s
between the United Nations and G20.
-
38m 06s
Particularly in socio economic areas.
-
38m 10s
And I think this is also the proposal of Mr. Guterres,
-
38m 13s
to have the high-level annual meeting with the G20 countries.
-
38m 20s
I think, this is the right direction to go
-
38m 22s
reflecting also the views of the leading Global South.
-
38m 29s
And that is also very important.
-
38m 30s
Aude, you've worked with different organizations related to the UN in the Global South
-
38m 36s
and I'm sure you've seen areas where reform can be taken there as well.
-
38m 41s
So, if you could explain what you feel
-
38m 43s
what are the successes of having these organizations versus
-
38m 47s
the difficulties that they have run into.
-
38m 50s
Yes, sure. I think that is an important question that we need to discuss as well.
-
38m 55s
Like my fellow guests mentioned, I think, yes, indeed,
-
38m 58s
billions have been invested with positive impacts through the different programs
-
39m 04s
that the different UN agencies implement
-
39m 07s
or funded throughout the world and global south countries.
-
39m 13s
We also have the case of peacekeeping missions
-
39m 15s
and their role in protecting civilians in conflicts.
-
39m 20s
However, I think it's also important to acknowledge pitfalls
-
39m 27s
and major challenges within these different agencies and programs and clients.
-
39m 34s
And I'm going to talk from my experience working in West Africa,
-
39m 40s
and as a recipient of funding by UN agencies.
-
39m 44s
When UN agencies fund programs they generally go through international NGOs
-
39m 50s
who capture most of the funding,
-
39m 52s
and actually very little reach local actors,
-
39m 56s
local NGOs and local practitioners and that is a real problem.
-
40m 02s
The lack of transparency and the very little we know is that
-
40m 05s
very little funding actually reaches those local actors.
-
40m 11s
Secondly, there's been a lot of talk about localization.
-
40m 17s
The USA ID, for instance, is putting some efforts into it.
-
40m 21s
And I think more efforts need to be done within UN agencies as well,
-
40m 26s
which is localization, which is basically
-
40m 30s
enabling ownership and leadership of programs by local actors.
-
40m 36s
And not just simply having foreigners designing and implementing programs.
-
40m 51s
If I may go to my last question, I know this is a difficult one to answer,
-
40m 56s
but is there one thing specifically we can do right now,
-
40m 59s
despite the limitations of the Charter,
-
41m 01s
despite certain limitations with veto power, et cetera, cetera?
-
41m 04s
Is there one thing we can do? And
-
41m 07s
what would you want to see this organization turning into
-
41m 13s
so that it is still relevant today?
-
41m 15s
I would go for expanding representation, because again,
-
41m 20s
we cannot continue with multilateral bodies,
-
41m 23s
within which pretty much the majority of world is on the sideline.
-
41m 30s
So, I will go for that, even though that that remains a challenge,
-
41m 33s
given the lack of consensus within the Global South itself.
-
41m 37s
My second answer, which regards the relevance of the United Nations,
-
41m 42s
I will say that it remains a relevant, multilateral organization because,
-
41m 47s
in my view, it is the primary forum which gathers every country around the world,
-
41m 54s
and which has such a wide mandate.
-
41m 56s
So, from peace and security to socio economic issues, I mean, you name it.
-
42m 02s
So, in that sense, to me at the moment,
-
42m 05s
that's the only organization that really allows that.
-
42m 08s
However, its relevance, its credibility
-
42m 14s
is particularly challenged in the current context.
-
42m 17s
I mean, it has been for decades, but in the world of, in this world,
-
42m 22s
where we're seeing a change of power balances,
-
42m 26s
we're seeing multiple crisis from the COVID pandemic
-
42m 34s
to climate insecurity, to a war that is affecting pretty much the entire world,
-
42m 41s
because of economic, in particular economic and human insecurity consequences.
-
42m 49s
Thank you. Taka, how about you?
-
42m 52s
I think we need immediate reform of the Security Council.
-
42m 57s
There are two, one is a sort of the hard Security Council reform,
-
43m 02s
which needs a change to the Charter Agreement.
-
43m 10s
And the other one is a soft reform
-
43m 14s
which doesn't need the change of the stipulation of the Charter.
-
43m 19s
With regard to the hard Security Council reform,
-
43m 22s
I think we should proceed with a two-stage reform process.
-
43m 27s
The first is to reform the Security Council as soon as possible
-
43m 32s
by creating sort of so-called semi-permanent member seats.
-
43m 38s
And by enlarging six to eight semi-permanents,
-
43m 43s
which don't have any veto powers,
-
43m 46s
which keep those seats for only six years, or five to six, or for four to six years,
-
43m 52s
before the seats go up for election again.
-
43m 55s
I think with this kind of new category of permanent members,
-
44m 00s
the Security Council can be reformed,
-
44m 03s
rather soon, within two or three years, by 2025 or so.
-
44m 07s
While at the same time, we should also proceed with the softer,
-
44m 11s
Security Council reform by introducing a resolution in the General Assembly,
-
44m 17s
which doesn't need any change of the Charter Amendment,
-
44m 20s
Charter Provisions, by introducing, for example,
-
44m 23s
a system not to cast vetoes for the issues of genocide and crime against humanities.
-
44m 33s
Karin.
-
44m 34s
My organization Security Council Report does not take a position for
-
44m 38s
or against reform of the Security Council.
-
44m 41s
That said, there are two things
-
44m 43s
that the Council could do that would significantly enhance its credibility.
-
44m 50s
Since its job is to maintain international peace and security,
-
44m 54s
it could do much more to try to prevent conflict breaking out.
-
44m 58s
That means discussing fragile situations around the world.
-
45m 03s
The Council very rarely discusses emerging situations
-
45m 07s
because it is so sensitive for any country to find itself discussed in the Security Council.
-
45m 14s
But any country and the Secretary General can bring issues for discussion to the Security Council.
-
45m 21s
That needs to happen much more than it does now.
-
45m 24s
The second thing is weapons of mass destruction.
-
45m 27s
Even as we see the various nuclear regimes evaporate,
-
45m 31s
control regimes evaporate around us,
-
45m 34s
the Security Council very rarely talks about weapons of mass destruction.
-
45m 41s
It does so in specific contexts, Syria, Iran, DPRK,
-
45m 47s
but not keeping the world as a whole safe from nuclear and other weapons.
-
45m 53s
Brett, would you like to…
-
45m 55s
Thank you.
-
45m 56s
We talked a little bit earlier about how
-
45m 59s
the UN has been effective in helping people around the world
-
46m 02s
through either providing food assistance to refugees, etc.
-
46m 05s
That being said, there's a lot of things wrong with the organization.
-
46m 09s
Part of the problem is that many member states
-
46m 12s
contribute very little to the UN.
-
46m 14s
The lowest assessed countries in the UN system pay $38,000 a year to the organization
-
46m 22s
0.001% for the regular budget and 0.0001%, for the peacekeeping budget.
-
46m 29s
The United States pays the equivalent of 184 countries combined
-
46m 35s
through its assessment.
-
46m 36s
What that means, isn't, I'm not saying that everybody should pay the same amount.
-
46m 40s
But I'm saying that every country should have skin in the game.
-
46m 42s
If they're paying a certain amount to the organization,
-
46m 45s
they're going to have more of an incentive to make sure that those contributions are used well.
-
46m 49s
And finally, turning to the UN Security Council, I think reform is unlikely,
-
46m 54s
because I think that the permanent members with the veto,
-
46m 57s
have a vested interest in making sure that they're able to cast that veto
-
47m 00s
if an issue comes up that addresses one of their major concerns.
-
47m 06s
That is not going to go away.
-
47m 07s
I think that Taka's proposal where you have sort of mid-tier
-
47m 14s
level members of the Security Council, a small expansion of countries
-
47m 17s
that can stay on for longer periods of time and get reelected,
-
47m 20s
I think that's probably the most realistic path for reform.
-
47m 24s
But, so, despite all these problems, then why is this organization still so relevant?
-
47m 29s
Because what is we see what's going on in Ukraine.
-
47m 32s
What we see happening with the refugees in Syria,
-
47m 34s
because of the refugees in Africa, because there are people around the world
-
47m 38s
who are in desperate situations and the UN is the best vehicle for providing them with food,
-
47m 43s
with support with shelter.
-
47m 45s
This, I think is the most impactful thing that the organization does.
-
47m 49s
Unfortunately, it's not the one thing that gets the most headlines from it.
-
47m 52s
Instead, you get about the vetoes on Ukraine.
-
47m 56s
The importance of the of the United Nations right now,
-
48m 01s
is, of course, very clearly to be seen,
-
48m 04s
in comparison to the League of Nations,
-
48m 07s
where, I think, the major countries are not in that system.
-
48m 16s
Some countries were not participating in it.
-
48m 20s
And some countries withdrew from this,
-
48m 23s
and that led to the outbreak of the Second World War.
-
48m 27s
What we have to do is stop and prevent the Third World War breaking out.
-
48m 34s
So, now, we are witnessing interstate war, not intra, interstate wars.
-
48m 44s
And this is a tradition of wars between the countries.
-
48m 47s
We are in a very, very difficult situation that we had before World War Two,
-
48m 54s
so that the importance of the United Nations is even greater
-
49m 00s
than ever, and that is prevention of the war.
-
49m 04s
Thank you all for your insight.
-
49m 06s
It was very valuable to hear from you today.
-
49m 09s
Even UN insiders agree the system is not perfect.
-
49m 13s
The institution is composed of states with individual interests,
-
49m 16s
and their responses to various crises, like the war in Ukraine,
-
49m 20s
have raised questions about their commitment to multilateralism.
-
49m 24s
But their interaction proves to us
-
49m 27s
the importance of keeping all those parties at the same table
-
49m 31s
to remind them time and again,
-
49m 34s
of the reason the UN was created in the first place,
-
49m 37s
to ensure a more secure and peaceful world.
-
49m 41s
Thank you for joining GLOBAL AGENDA.