Beyond Binary: The Evolving Gender Landscape

[VIDEO]
[Woman]
"Trans rights are human rights!"
[Crowd]
"Trans rights are human rights!"
The idea of gender-free societies, in which everyone can live free from gender constraints, is spreading. Institutional changes are taking place, including the legalization of same-sex marriage around the world. In sports, transgender athletes are competing and winning medals. Since last year, Apple smartphones have featured a "pregnant man" emoji. The 2022 Disney movie, "Lightyear," features a lesbian couple, a first for the company. Gender diversity is advancing. Yet, last December, Russia toughened a law to severely restrict LGBTQ rights. Some countries are determined to preserve traditional gender norms. Are we ready for a world of increasingly diverse gender identities? Today, we discuss how to create a society in which everyone can be comfortable.

[Yamamoto Miki / NHK WORLD-JAPAN]
Welcome to Global Agenda. I'm Yamamoto Miki. Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. And since 2013, the UN has conducted a global campaign to promote equality and fair treatment of LGBTQ people. But the reality is far from equal and fair. Today, we've invited people of different gender identities as well as their allies to discuss the increasingly diverse gender landscape and how to create a society where no one is left behind. Now, here's our panelists. First is Robert Campbell, a scholar of Japanese literature and university professor at Waseda University in Tokyo. Originally from New York, he's lived in Japan for 37 years and is a frequent presence on Japanese media. In 2018, he came out publicly on his blog. A year earlier in the United States, he had married his partner of almost 20 years. From Taiwan is Jennifer Lu, LGBTQ rights activist and Director of Asia program at Outright International, a global LGBTQ organization. In 2016, she became the first lesbian to run in a general election in Taiwan. She was a leading advocate for legalizing marriage equality there. Next, Dr. Veronica Ivy is an expert on athletes' rights and an advisor for international sports organizations. She is also a two-time UCI Masters Track Cycling World Champion and first trans woman to hold that title. And Japanese TV personality, Sekine Mari. She attended an international school in Japan until high school, and university in the US. She's now raising two children, aged seven and three. She will offer her perspective as a parent and cisgender woman. And today, we also have five online audiences to provide their opinions and perspectives. First, Fairul Dahlan is a drag queen who identifies as gay. Fairul comes from Singapore where homosexuality was recently decriminalized. Chase Johnsey is an American gender-fluid ballet dancer. He has performed female roles in a female ensemble, and he's joining us today from Spain. Janina Leo is a clinical psychologist from Australia. She supported her daughter when she came out as a transgender at the age of 17. Abigail McLeod is a teacher from the US state of Florida where there is fierce debate over discussing LGBTQ-related issues in the schools. And, Nakagaki Rikiya works for IBM Japan. He's involved in recruitment and promoting an inclusive work environment for all employees. So thank you all very much for joining us today. Now first, I'd like to start by asking you to share a bit about your personal experiences. And Jennifer, may I start with you? What struggles did you have about your identity growing up, and how do you feel now?

[Jennifer Lu / Asia Program Director at Outright International]
I think everybody knows that Taiwan legalized same-sex marriage recently but we haven't achieved equality yet. When I was young... I'm 40 years old this year, so 20 years ago, I felt really lonely and disconnected from the older society. At the same time, the whole system, the governmental system, every official system actually, really excluded LGBT individuals and their friends, their family members. So growing up, I actually felt that the whole government, the whole society didn't recognize me. We've conducted a survey recently, and a lot of the LGBT community and their families feel like they have been accepted and are being loved, being recognized by the whole society and the government. I think the change in the law has had a really positive impact, not only for us, but for everyone in Taiwan.

[YAMAMOTO]
How about you, Veronica? What kind of emotions did you go through during your process?

[Veronica Ivy / Expert on Athletes' Rights]
So, I'm a trans woman and I came out a little over a decade ago. And when I was growing up, there wasn't the same visibility of trans people that we have now. So, I've had conversations with my mother that, what if I came out when I was 12, what would've happened? Doctors didn't know what to do. The social literacy around trans identities just wasn't there. And the sorts of representations were really quite negative on daytime TV. So that made me take even longer to really figure out who I am. But once I transitioned, then everything is amazing. Being your authentic self openly and fully. You don't hide anything. When my students would ask me what the best thing about being trans is, after laughing for a few minutes I would say that, "Well, once you've gone through a gender transition, there's literally nothing stopping you from being who you want to be." So I feel open and free. And then also at home in my body, which is really hard to express how fantastic it is.

[YAMAMOTO]
And Robert, you've lived in Japan for decades and have established yourself as a prominent scholar. Did you face struggles about your gender identity during those years?

[Robert Campbell / Japanese Literature Scholar, University Professor, Waseda University]
I didn't really struggle myself about my gender identity, but how to present myself in Japanese society. When I first arrived here in my late 20s, in the mid-1980s, that was right when AIDS, HIV, was really really rolling and an enormous social problem, not only in the United States but in Africa, Europe and other places in the world. I went to a provincial large university and studied there, and the students around me, my mentor and the other professors, really didn't have a sense of reality about what HIV and what AIDS was itself. I had a very very strong consciousness myself obviously, being a gay male who was in a relationship with someone before I came to Japan. But most of the people, most of the men especially around me, sort of used it as a joke in a way. For example, if we went out to have a drink, my professor would say, "Oh, don't drink that. He's been drinking it. You'll get AIDS if you drink it." Sort of like, sounding to me, very very crude, although perhaps a naive and innocent form of discrimination. So I became very very self-conscious. I thought that if I wanted to proceed and deepen my knowledge and create a career here in Japan, I would need to shut out that aspect of myself, my sexual orientation. I was completely out since I was in high school in the United States, but once I got to Japan, especially in a provincial city, the dynamics really really changed. And I decided, almost clinically, rationally, calculatingly, to not expose that aspect of myself in order for me to make my dreams come true in a sense. That's changed a lot obviously over the last 20, 30 years, especially in the last five or six years. I feel there's been an incredible weather change in Japan. And, I'm older now obviously. I'm established and I had probably less risking to think about when I came out publicly in my blog as you introduced today.

[YAMAMOTO]
Mari, there are still people who say things like, "Act like a man or a woman," and most of the times they don't mean to be discriminatory. What do you think about the gap between people who are conscious about gender identity and who are not?

[Sekine Mari / Japanese TV Personality]
Yeah, I feel it all the time. I mean... People still say, "You should be like this because you're a girl." or "You should act this way because you're a boy." I guess I grew up hearing those phrases without thinking that they were actually gender-biased. But now, I am conscious about those phrases so I try not to use them, not to be gender-biased. But it's so difficult because they're unconscious bias. And sometimes I might catch myself trying to say a certain phrase or I hear my mother using that phrase... The other day, my mom saw my daughter sitting down and she had a skirt on and her knees were a little bit open. So my mom said, "Oh, you should sit properly because you're a girl." But then I thought, that's not how it should be phrased. That's when I caught that phrase and I said, "You should sit with your knees together because you're wearing a skirt." And I said, "You don't have to worry about your knees when you're wearing pants because I also sit like that when I'm wearing pants and that's why I like wearing pants." So those little small phrases have gender identity within the phrase. And even if you're trying to be aware of them, it's difficult to catch all of the different phrases. The reason why I am more conscious about these comments is because when I was growing up in Japan, the LGBTQ community, I was aware of it but it wasn't something very close to me. But after moving and living in the States, there was a big LGBTQ community in my school and I made friends there. And by getting to know the people, by communicating, you become more aware. And I think that's important to fill in the gap of gender, of being aware of the gender identity.

[YAMAMOTO]
Now let's ask one of our guests in the panel. Janina, what was it like for you when your child first came out to you, and how have you come to terms with it?

[Janina Leo / Clinical Psychologist, Mother of Transgender Child]
It was actually a long process. My daughter, who was born biologically male, came out gradually over high school. In about grade nine, she identified as gay and then in about grade 10 and 11, she identified as non-binary until grade 12, where she sort of had come to know herself a lot more and identified as a trans woman. And it was quite difficult because she attended a private, conservative school. And she was the first person to attend the formal as a trans woman in a dress and it caused a lot of difficulties with the school. We had some legal battles, or had some issues around having the school let her attend the formal in a dress. So it was quite a difficult time for my daughter especially, because this was her big coming out, and it was also a difficult time for the family as well because we were trying to go through this process of supporting my daughter and we're having to deal with a very conservative school in the process. I would just say that it can be very confusing as a parent. You can have and be caught up in the ideals you have for your child associated with their biological sex. And it can be really hard to see your child come out as a different gender, but the most important thing is to support your child because they need that love and care. They need to be supported to be who they are in order for them to be healthy.

[YAMAMOTO]
Now, let's look at some of the hurdles LGBTQ people face in achieving equal rights and fair treatment.

[VIDEO]
Around the world, it is increasingly common for passports and ID documents to include a third gender option. Since April 2022, a third choice has been included on US passport application forms alongside male and female. "X."
[Man]
"It's legal recognition. We've always been here, but now we can legally stand."
The Netherlands has even announced it will completely remove the gender category from ID cards by 2025. Yet, only 33 countries and regions legally allow same-sex marriage. In Asia, Taiwan joined this group in 2019. Japan is the only G7 nation not to do the same. The Tokyo Metropolitan Government issues same-sex "partnership certificates," but this is still a long way from legally recognizing gay marriage. In March 2022, the US state of Florida passed a law forbidding kindergartens and elementary schools from discussing sexual orientation or identity.
[Crowd 2]
"Say gay!"
Dubbed the "Don't Say Gay" law, it has sparked fierce protest from those who consider it discriminatory.

[YAMAMOTO]
Let's begin by talking about same-sex marriage. Jennifer, you were one of the leaders of the movement to legalize same-sex marriage in Taiwan. What were the challenges and what was the key to achieving that goal?

[LU]
In the past, in the LGBT movement, we usually said, "We want our human rights," or "Anti-discrimination." However, during the campaign, we realized that ordinary people, they don't really care about human rights, to be honest. It's the reality. So we started to look at what the most important value in Taiwan was. According to some research we did, they were harmony and respect. So, we started to talk about, okay, let same-sex couples get married. We can create a harmony in society and it's a way for each other to respect each other. And also, I think storytelling is one of the key strategies we used. Because a lot of people, they don't know real people like me or other panelists in their lives. So we tried to spread the real story. What are their struggles? And also the family's stories. Not only LGBT individuals themselves but also about our fathers, our mothers. So for us, the most important thing I think is delivering the real stories of our lives continuously and letting more and more people understand that we are one of your friends and family members. And so I think my whole career life has been about coming out all the time. I try my best to come out not only in my daily life, but in my professional life, too. I still see a lot of struggling among people, including myself. Coming out as an individual, in one's private life is still difficult. But I think we already passed the most difficult part right now.

[YAMAMOTO]
And what changes are you seeing in society after legalization?

[LU]
I would say, it's amazing. For a lot of people, in the past, they received usually very negative information about LGBT. And a lot of misinformation. But now, they know people in their real life. According to a survey, if people know someone who is LGBT in their real life, the support rate actually rises like 30%. So we see the power of story and we see the power of interpersonal relationships. And right now, not only the statistics, but also in my personal life, we feel more recognized, accepted. There are a lot of young gay couples holding hands on the street and no one sees them in a weird attitude. I see that is a very positive impact after the law.

[YAMAMOTO]
So Robert, this shows how changes in social systems can change people's mindset to a certain extent. But still, many countries do not recognize same-sex marriage, including Japan. How has that affected your life with your husband in Japan and what can we do to change course?

[CAMPBELL]
I think it's affected the fact that we can't achieve the same status as we were able to in the United States. In other words, get married, call each other husband. File our tax forms together. Give assent to medical procedures, for example. Inherit, for example, our assets if one of us passes away before the other. I think there are dozens and dozens of ways that we're actually affected but they're mostly things that you don't see every day. They don't get in the way right away. All of the institutional changes that we've seen in the last five or six years, partnership for example, partnership arrangements are now accepted in more than half of the Japanese population in local districts and so forth. But that's occurred in each small local district because of the activities and the actions of people at very, very grassroot levels. The problem is the national government. And that's something that we've had a very, very big challenge in actually changing. I think it's a glacial sort of movement and I think in the span of my life, I think we're going to achieve equality in marriage as well, but it's something that's moving very, very slowly here and something that I'm not terribly optimistic about right now at this point.

[YAMAMOTO]
Fairul. Singapore still does not recognize marriage equality. Why do you think? What's hindering that realization?

[Fairul Dahlan / Drag Queen Identifying as Gay]
Here in Singapore, we have a very diverse group of religions. So I think, to not trigger all the different races and religions, this is why the government is still choosing to oppose agreeing to marriage equality. So it's mostly, I would believe, mostly because of religion.

[YAMAMOTO]
Does anyone have comments or opinions about same-sex marriage? Veronica.

[IVY]
So in Canada, we started legalizing it in 2003 and then federally in 2005. And I'll be perfectly honest. I have a really hard time understanding why people would oppose it. I don't understand why you would want to control someone else's life, when their being married has no impact on you whatsoever. So I think that we should also consider how this is controlling other people and restricting their freedoms that other people have. We should all have the same freedoms. So if you are free to marry the person you want to, other people should be as well.

[YAMAMOTO]
Now, I'd like to talk about children. How children should be educated about the diversifying gender landscape. And as we saw in the video, Florida has enacted the so-called "Don't Say Gay" law this year and it's sparking fierce debate. So first, I want to ask Abigail because she's a teacher in Florida. Abigail, what's your position on the law and its potential impact?

[Abigail McLeod / Teacher from the US State of Florida]
As far as its potential impact, it's one of those things where, one of the great things about public education in America is that it is a one-size-fits-all program. And with that being said, we have to make sure that we are including everyone, regardless of race, gender identity, sexual orientation, whatever the case may be. And unfortunately in some certain states, they are trying to implement that, "Well, even though it's a public school, my specific religious text says that this is wrong. Therefore you can't talk about it." And unfortunately, they are targeting our trans youth. And we have seen study after study and research after research state that representation matters. And having these children be able to see themselves in also characters and books. A part of that Don't Say Gay law was about removing some books that have characters where the main character is gay or trans. And again, if you have students who have parents who might be trans or their parents are in same-sex marriage, they're not seeing that representation. And it's unfortunate because the kids are falling through the cracks and we are seeing time and time again that it is the students of our LGBTQ+ community that are suffering from depression, they're suffering from anxiety. Personally, I refuse to be a part of that.

[CAMPBELL]
Abigail, can I ask you a question? I know that you're a teacher in Florida. And in the classroom, for example, if a second grade student or a third grade student, or everyone's asked to draw a picture of their parents and she or he draws two men or two women and submits it and everyone is going to talk about that and you're going to introduce it. I know that it puts you in a great deal of risk actually as a professional to actually allow that student to participate in the discussion. What sort of decision would you make?

[MCLEOD]
It really does. And it is also one of those things where teachers, they're afraid to speak out on specific issues because of fear of losing their jobs. And it's a real fear. But it's a fear that, right now, I just don't have. And if that's an activity that all of my students are participating in, then all of my students are going to participate.

[Chase Johnsey / Gender-fluid Ballet Dancer]
I'm actually from Florida too, even though I live in Barcelona now. I didn't come out till I was 15. Kids are coming out with their gender or their sexuality much younger now. But it's important that every single person has access to an objective education about all of these issues because they're facts, we're here. All of us are here, all of us that exist, then everyone can make their own opinions and they can live that privately. But I think it's important that every single person has at least a general understanding that this exists in nature. We're not perverted. This is all very, very common and normal. And then people can make their own decisions when they go home with their own families.

[YAMAMOTO]
Janina, you had your hand raised up.

[LEO]
We're very lucky in Australia, we've had marriage equality since 2017. And schools have been quite open to having conversations around gender diversity and things like that. Unfortunately, we still have, and in the case of my own daughter, private schools which are religious-based schools that still hold to those traditional gender norms. And we really should have and encourage schools, even in the private sector, to be using inclusive language, to be changing their policies, to be training their teachers in anti-discrimination and human rights and diversity and inclusion frameworks. Because it doesn't matter even if you are in a school where it is religious. Those children still have a right to be able to be who they are and to have the support they need.

[YAMAMOTO]
Now, Jennifer, you have your hand up too.

[LU]
Actually, we had the Gender Equity Education Act in 2004. I think a lot of people in Taiwan agree that Gender Equity Education Act actually is the fundamental education for our young generation. Our younger generation, the reason they can accept LGBT issues and also other gender equality issues strongly is because of the education. So in the schools, in our regulation, from elementary school to senior high school, every student needs to take at least four hours gender equality class per semester. And I think it's great that sometimes a math teacher, when they decide questions or the surveys or the content of their class, they can use some of the ideas. For example, Mary has two mothers, and a mother used 100 dollars to buy something and the other mother used 300 dollars to buy something else. So what is the total? So this is not specifically talking about LGBT issues but is trying to merge these gender equalities, LGBT-inclusive idea in their daily teachings. And I think it's more inclusive. And the kids from the rainbow family or the LGBTQ youths can see themselves in the schools, and that's a really good impact.

[YAMAMOTO]
And Mari, as a mother, what kind of education would you like for your kids with regards to gender equality?

[SEKINE]
Well, gender equality is human equality. And I think they should be able to have a good view of the world, and the earlier the better. Because knowledge is very important, being accessible to... Knowing the differences is very important. And being able to have an open conversation is very important. And that's when they can think for themselves and decide for themselves and have their own opinion on any of the issues. So in education, I think they should always be open to different kinds of equality.

[YAMAMOTO]
Now in the world of adults, there's this issue of inclusion in the workplace and the obstacles LGBTQ people face when applying for jobs. And Robert, you talked about the fear you had coming out during the 1980s, in part because it might affect your career prospect. How much do you think that fear still lurks among the LGBTQ people and how damaging could that be for them and for society as a whole?

[CAMPBELL]
I think the problem here, especially in Japanese society where people try to avoid conflict very, very much, it's a very, very harmony... sort of valorizing society, and people will not say to your face something that's discriminatory usually. They don't throw stones at you. But in places that you don't know, in times where you have no idea where decisions are being made, if you're lesbian or if you're trans or if you're gay, there will be opportunities that won't be shown to you. Especially entry level jobs, young workers, for example. A lot of people that I know don't want to come out in the workplace because their immediate supervisors, they don't understand at all. Although the company itself is very, very inclusive, the people who are closest to them, who have a lot of control over what they're actually going to do at work could actually block them in a way. So I think that there's a sense of blockage, that people sense, that they want to cut those risks and be sort of conservative about how they present themselves as well. And that's very, very, I think, limiting. It really, really closes the opportunities and the ways that we can live together and be innovative and cooperative as a society here itself.

[YAMAMOTO]
Rikiya. You promote inclusion at IBM Japan. What's the company doing to try to change the recruitment process and as a result of embracing diversity, what changes are you seeing in the workplace?

[Nakagaki Rikiya / Talent Acquisition Manager at IBM Japan]
At IBM and IBM Japan, we do gender-free hiring. In the application process, our candidates do not need to choose their gender from set binary options of male or female. And we also do not require our candidates to submit their face photos in the CV process. And we also communicate our inclusive work environment and initiatives to support LGBTQ+ people be themselves in the workplace. This is helping IBM and IBM Japan gather applications from more diverse candidates and recruit the best talent in the market who fit the job description, regardless of their sex, gender, or gender orientation. I remember a conversation I had with one of the candidates a few years ago when I was in the Campus Hiring team. She wanted to know about our application process. She was a transgender person herself and she was worried whether she needed to identify and choose her gender or sex in the application process because that was her experience in applying for other companies. So I told her that our gender-free hiring did not require her to do so. And it looked like a huge relief for her.

[YAMAMOTO]
Thank you very much. Next, we want to look at the biological challenges facing LGBTQ people. While momentum is growing to remove the biological categories of male and female from the arts and sports, it is not easy to get everyone on board.

[VIDEO]
In ballet, male and female roles are traditionally defined. Yet, while gender-fluid dancer Chase Johnsey has a male body, he plays female roles.
[Narrator in movie]
"Instances of male cisgender pregnancies were reported across the world 50 years ago."
A man becomes pregnant. Unbounded by conventional ideas of sexuality, this Japan-made drama won audiences around the world. And in the world of sports, there were more than three times as many LGBTQ athletes at the Tokyo 2021 Olympics than Rio five years earlier. Transgender athletes attracted particular attention. Although other athletes complained they had an unfair physical advantage. In response, the IOC stopped basing entry criteria on hormone levels, leaving it up to each discipline to set its own rules.
[Christian Klaue / IOC spokesperson]
"Eligibility criteria are very specific to sports, sometimes to discipline and sometimes even to events."
International swimming and rugby associations have since restricted or blocked transgender athletes from entering women's events.

[YAMAMOTO]
Chase, we just saw in the video what a beautiful dancer you are. The gender you were assigned at birth was male, and you became a ballet dancer performing female roles. What physical challenges have you faced, and what keeps you going?

[JOHNSEY]
Just so you know, I made history. I was the first gender-fluid dancer to dance in a female ensemble at the English National Ballet. But one of the hardest things was, it wasn't my people fighting for me. It was a female director, which is very rare in the ballet world. She believed in me and she just liked the way I danced. But it was hell with the choreographers because they just picked out everything that was wrong about me. My shoulders are wide, my feet are big, I have extra muscle... But I wasn't the most muscular among the female dancers. I wasn't the most broad shouldered or the most big footed. It was just an excuse to show what an abomination I was. After that happened, after I made history, no one would hire me. And the reason was, "We don't want that type of publicity." So that's a little bit of my story and my experience.

[YAMAMOTO]
Thank you. Now in the world of sports, there's debate about whether transgender females should be allowed to compete in women's and girl's categories. And one US poll said nearly two-thirds of Americans oppose allowing trans female students to do so. Now, Veronica, the argument about trans women having an unfair advantage seems to come down to this question. Can sports be inclusive and fair?

[IVY]
So at the Tokyo Olympics, no trans woman won a medal. And it was the first Olympics ever since trans people were allowed at the Olympics in 2004, that trans people even participated. And this idea that trans women have an unfair advantage is almost entirely based on assuming that they are just men in women's sport. And then comparing male, cisgender male sport performance to cisgender female sport performance, but that's the wrong comparison. You have to compare trans female athletes to cis female athletes, and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there's an advantage. But even if there were, we permit all kinds of advantages within sport and consider it fair. You can't just look at a body and tell who has an advantage or not. And you can't just say that trans women have an advantage when they win, when you ignore all the times that they lose. And to be perfectly frank, I lose most of my races. So it can't be unfair when I win, but fair if I lose. So, what I support is no biological restrictions within a sex category. Because if you apply that equally, then you're going to single out some cis women as well. If you say, for example, rugby says no trans women over like five-foot-nine. What about cis women who are six-foot, 300 pounds? Right? That's fair, but a 160-pound six-foot trans woman isn't? It's nonsense on its face. So what I would really like people to take away from this is that the science is not important. The fundamental human rights and dignity of the athletes is what's important. And the more we police who gets to compete as a woman, who gets to compete as a man, the worse things get for everybody.

[SEKINE]
As Veronica mentioned, sports and also art should be inclusive. I don't see the issue here. The way Chase and also Veronica mentioned, people have different types of body, different potentials. And those don't necessarily have to be targeted because you're a trans female or you're a cis female. Sport is a field where we are all allowed to participate, so I hope it becomes that way.

[CAMPBELL]
From somebody totally outside the world of sports and actually practicing art, it was fascinating to listen to what Veronica and Chase had to say. I learned a lot from that. I totally agree with both of them that fairness versus inclusiveness is not a rational binary concept at all. As in the field of education and law, business, everywhere else, I think inclusion is where things should start from.

[YAMAMOTO]
And Chase, you had your hand up, go ahead.

[JOHNSEY]
Now I have my own ballet company, Ballet de Barcelona. It is all inclusive, we have every gender, every ethnicity, every height, every body type. None of those things exist. Now that I have made my mark for myself, now I'm really, really focused on being inclusive to absolutely everybody, especially in the dance world. Everybody who is talented should have the opportunity to dance. So now that is really, really what I'm happy doing.

[YAMAMOTO]
Now in our final segment, we look at some of the latest societal changes happening in response to growing appeals from the LGBTQ community, and maybe offer a glimpse of what's to come.

[VIDEO]
[Lee Hsien Loong / Prime Minister of Singapore]
"Like every human society, we also have gay people in our midst. They are our fellow Singaporeans."
In August 2022, Singapore repealed an 80-year-old law punishing sex between men. From Cuba in the Caribbean to Slovenia in Eastern Europe, the world is increasingly recognizing the rights of LGBTQ people.

[YAMAMOTO]
So, Fairul, how significant is the repeal of the law in Singapore, and how do you feel about it?

[DAHLAN]
I think it's very significant because it's a law that has been with us for years that sees men who engage in sexual intercourse with other men as a crime. And we're seen in such a bad light, but it's fine for woman and woman. So, this law is just targeted at gay men. So, to have it abolished is something really huge because it's not just about the fact that we're seen as criminals. But it's also the fact that the law... The penal code 377A is right next to 377B, which is a law about sex between men and animals. So, we are being compared to animals. So, to me, it's very degrading. So, to have this taken away, it shows that we're at least moving forward in Singapore as a society, so it means a lot to me.

[LU]
I personally feel very positive about Singapore's progress, although we know it's still a long way to go. But right now, it's the beginning point for everybody. We can start to talk about that, share more stories and more LGBT people can come out. I think that's only the first step, a baby step, but it's a good step.

[YAMAMOTO]
And does anyone else in the panel have some positive changes you've seen in the society to share? Rikiya, you have something to say, I think.

[NAKAGAKI]
Yes, if I can share a Japanese perspective, in 2015, IBM Japan announced a new policy, which enabled employees to register same-sex marriage which makes it possible for the employees to get access to the same company benefits as people of opposite-sex marriage. And it is the first time a company in Japan did so. And that was in 2015. So, I think we are seeing more positive movements.

[YAMAMOTO]
Mari, it looks like things are gradually getting better, bit by bit. But still, many people don't see the issues of gender bias as relevant to their lives. What do you think we need to do to raise awareness, especially among people who don't have a circle of LGBTQ acquaintances?

[SEKINE]
Of course, having acquaintances is the closest... Having a direct conversation would be the best way to broaden your view. But as Jennifer mentioned about sharing stories, hearing stories, so having maybe books or movies or having characters, hearing real life stories of different types of people would open up an awareness. So it would lead to the knowledge of the differences. And as I mentioned earlier, I think the earlier the better to start this process. So, we should keep on, like what this program is doing, have more conversations. And to open up the idea that it's okay to have these conversations.

[YAMAMOTO]
Now, Jennifer, you helped legalize same-sex marriage or marriage equality in Taiwan. What changes do you want to bring about next?

[LU]
We're seeing some positive impacts because Taiwan passed the law. And so, I think that gave a lot of activists in the region some hope because in the past, we saw a lot of western faces. I feel like it's a western thing, it's not an Asian thing. However, we know LGBT is everywhere. So, of course, we are going to find some way to merge our Asian culture and also the LGBT community in every society.

[YAMAMOTO]
And Veronica. In the world of sports, what's your next strategy to promote understanding for transgender people?

[IVY]
I want people to take a moment and put aside their gut reactions or feelings about an issue or people. And recognize us as people first rather than people with a label. And I think, people should focus on opening themselves up to other possibilities, other ways of freedom. And that not only opens them up to respecting other people, which we all should want, but it opens up possibilities for themselves as well. So, I would hope people would sit down, try to put aside your walls and your gut reactions and open up a little.

[YAMAMOTO]
Robert, there were some significant discussions today, and I'd like to ask you, what positive effects could gender equality bring to society, and how could that contribute to human happiness?

[CAMPBELL]
Something really interesting has happened since I married my husband. When we go to the United States, or I go alone, and I talk to people about my family situation, it's all very, very transparent and I don't really feel anything. It's just like everything else around me. But then when I come back to Japan, when I talk in a social environment without saying, first of all that I'm gay, if I mention my partner as being my husband, the conversation stops basically. It sort of freezes for a moment. And I suddenly realize, "Wow, I'm gay." And I sort of "become gay" in that context. What I'm trying to say is that it's really, really important, although we may not feel it every day at every moment of our lives, how society views you, and all of the legal and the official structure around you, the potential that you have. It was interesting to hear Rikiya talking about what's going on at IBM and how they have different ways of making blind employment and human resource choices and so forth to open up the potential and the possibilities and the curiosity and all of the quirks that we all have as individuals. And I think that that's the most important thing that we have, and the largest task that we have in front of us is to move that forward. I think opening up society, allowing everyone to stand where they stand naturally and where they feel comfortable for themselves is crucial to sustainability and to create a better world for the citizens and the generations that come after us.

[YAMAMOTO]
Time's up for today's discussion. Thank you all very much for sharing your experiences and insights with us. And that's it for today's program. Thank you for watching Global Agenda.